Honda e gymkhana day

All Honda E related discussions
karl1994
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:37 am

Post by karl1994 »

Recently i went for a gymkhana practice session, a first on the honda E advance.

my summarised thoughts are:

1. alarming understeer through all the slow speed parts and roundabouts. The front is being dragged along and forced to go straight while the rear pushes forwards. there was nothing i could do ( but keep in mind im no pro driver, not even close) to reduce or transit to oversteer, like snap off throttle, snap on during exit, slow in fast out etc. every input seemed to be too much for the front ( original 16” mileage savers tbh) tyres.

2. amazing at saloms. faster speed turn ins, hard braking to throttle transition is where the car is really good at. the suspension keeps the car mostly level and control is amazing. no snap understeer or oversteer.

To those with experience on this, has anyone found a way to deal with the slow speed understeer? will better front tyres help? not looking to have a drift machine but currently the understeer feels worse than other fwd cars.

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Verone
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Post by Verone »

karl1994 wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:21 pm every input seemed to be too much for the front ( original 16” mileage savers tbh) tyres.
This is probably the root of your issues with the car, especially if you're still on stock suspension as well.

I'm by no means a pro driver wither, but I used to build and set up drift and track cars when I lived UK (we're talking 10 years ago - and nothing fancy, mainly old beater Silvias, and E30 series BMWs for non-competitive personal fun and track days), and I can tell you outright that there's huge potential to be gained even just by selecting the right rubber. I found this out very fast when tinkering.

The e also isn't helped by the 1" difference between rim size between front and rear given how skinny the stock rims are already. It also has a relatively aggressive positive offset on its stock wheels to keep the rims and tires inside the bodywork for improving aero.

I can understand why the rim width is different front to rear with them wanting to maximize steering lock and turning circle, but when you're starting with a 7" wide rim on the rear (for the stock 16s), then dropping down to a 6" on the front, the tire size is pretty much what you'll find on the average grocery getter, with a deep sidewall that doesn't deal with cornering too well and is going to flex a lot, especially given the weight of the car, which is relatively portly for its size and track. 6.5" and 7.5" on the Advance is a little better for sure.

The weight distribution in the car overall is SUPER good, but I'm not 100% sold on Honda's claim of it being absolutely 50/50. I still think the front is somewhat lighter than the rear, even if it's just a little bit. I might be wrong, but it certainly feels that way. When I was deciding on buying one, I threw around an advance a bit on the stock 17" rims with the factory Pilot Sport 4s, and it was quite nippy and stable, but did have a tendency to understeer a little bit. Not as severe as what you're describing, but it was there, albeit manageable. When I was back in the UK last summer I also drove a friend's e advance that's on Eibach springs, that are stiffer (not sure what the spring rate is) and drop the car by 30mm at the front, and 25mm at the back. He's on the stock rims, with 25mm spacers and 215 pilot sports on the front, 235s on the back. The two are like night and day. If there were dampers or full coilovers out there for the e that were a little stiffer too, it'd probably improve things further.

It sounds like even the increase from 6 to 6.5 inches rim width on the front end helps, as that bumps your tread up from a 185 to a 205 and gives a bit more grip. At a push you could probably put a 215 or 225 on the front on 17s if it doesn't interfere with the front arch lining and that'd also help. I'm guessing you could manage a 195 on the 16" rims. it doesn't sound like a lot, but it can make a hell of a difference with good quality tires.

I'm still waiting on delivery of my e, but I already have a set of 25mm spacers and a set of the Eibach springs waiting for it so that I can tinker with it when it gets delivered. I've also toyed with looking at strut brace options too, to stiffen the chassis up a little more and transfer the little bit of skittishness that the car has from the front to the rear, but there doesn't seem to be many options out there, and I'm not sure what access to the rear strut towers is like. I can imagine I'd probably have to consider making something custom for the back end if I wanted to go that route, but that's probably going to shaft the limited boot space even more, so I'll have to see how I'm feeling about it when it comes down to it.

As far as EVs go, I think the car has a hell of a lot of hot hatch potential and I can't wait to start pulling mine apart and seeing what I can do to it to turn it into a fun little gokart for zipping around town. As for track days, there are no tracks here in Iceland, but I'd imagine if you were going to track days in one, you'd want to find a track that had a CCS charger on site, because chucking these little things around is probably fairly addictive if you do it regularly :lol:

It sounds like you had a lot of fun, despite the car's shortcomings when it gets pushed a little - how did you find the running gear while you were throwing it around for a sustained amount of time? Where there any overheating issues or warnings? How was the battery usage when you were being a bit more aggressive with it?

I'm super curious to hear more! 8-)
Icelandic Advance Limited Edition in Premium Crystal Red on 17" rims
Registered May 2023
Home Type 2 Charging & Free Work Type 2 Charging! Woo!
ODO - 8750km
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londiniumperson
Posts: 1764
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Post by londiniumperson »

Bjørn Nyland weighed his test Honda e and discovered:
Total: 1620kg
Front: 820kg
Rear: 800kg

Also I'd suggest turning off the Vehicle Stability Assist (VSA) System:
When the VSA system is off, the traction control function becomes less effective.
This allows for the wheels to spin more freely at low speed.
You should only attempt to free your vehicle with the VSA off if you are not able to free it when the VSA is on.
2022 Advance in Crystal Black Pearl on 17's - 08/2020-Current
2015 VW Tiguan (Pure White) - 04/2018-Current
1991 Honda Beat PP1 (Festival Red) - 11/2022-Current
karl1994
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:37 am

Post by karl1994 »

Verone wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:19 pm
karl1994 wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:21 pm every input seemed to be too much for the front ( original 16” mileage savers tbh) tyres.
This is probably the root of your issues with the car, especially if you're still on stock suspension as well.

I'm by no means a pro driver wither, but I used to build and set up drift and track cars when I lived UK (we're talking 10 years ago - and nothing fancy, mainly old beater Silvias, and E30 series BMWs for non-competitive personal fun and track days), and I can tell you outright that there's huge potential to be gained even just by selecting the right rubber. I found this out very fast when tinkering.

The e also isn't helped by the 1" difference between rim size between front and rear given how skinny the stock rims are already. It also has a relatively aggressive positive offset on its stock wheels to keep the rims and tires inside the bodywork for improving aero.

I can understand why the rim width is different front to rear with them wanting to maximize steering lock and turning circle, but when you're starting with a 7" wide rim on the rear (for the stock 16s), then dropping down to a 6" on the front, the tire size is pretty much what you'll find on the average grocery getter, with a deep sidewall that doesn't deal with cornering too well and is going to flex a lot, especially given the weight of the car, which is relatively portly for its size and track. 6.5" and 7.5" on the Advance is a little better for sure.

The weight distribution in the car overall is SUPER good, but I'm not 100% sold on Honda's claim of it being absolutely 50/50. I still think the front is somewhat lighter than the rear, even if it's just a little bit. I might be wrong, but it certainly feels that way. When I was deciding on buying one, I threw around an advance a bit on the stock 17" rims with the factory Pilot Sport 4s, and it was quite nippy and stable, but did have a tendency to understeer a little bit. Not as severe as what you're describing, but it was there, albeit manageable. When I was back in the UK last summer I also drove a friend's e advance that's on Eibach springs, that are stiffer (not sure what the spring rate is) and drop the car by 30mm at the front, and 25mm at the back. He's on the stock rims, with 25mm spacers and 215 pilot sports on the front, 235s on the back. The two are like night and day. If there were dampers or full coilovers out there for the e that were a little stiffer too, it'd probably improve things further.

It sounds like even the increase from 6 to 6.5 inches rim width on the front end helps, as that bumps your tread up from a 185 to a 205 and gives a bit more grip. At a push you could probably put a 215 or 225 on the front on 17s if it doesn't interfere with the front arch lining and that'd also help. I'm guessing you could manage a 195 on the 16" rims. it doesn't sound like a lot, but it can make a hell of a difference with good quality tires.

I'm still waiting on delivery of my e, but I already have a set of 25mm spacers and a set of the Eibach springs waiting for it so that I can tinker with it when it gets delivered. I've also toyed with looking at strut brace options too, to stiffen the chassis up a little more and transfer the little bit of skittishness that the car has from the front to the rear, but there doesn't seem to be many options out there, and I'm not sure what access to the rear strut towers is like. I can imagine I'd probably have to consider making something custom for the back end if I wanted to go that route, but that's probably going to shaft the limited boot space even more, so I'll have to see how I'm feeling about it when it comes down to it.

As far as EVs go, I think the car has a hell of a lot of hot hatch potential and I can't wait to start pulling mine apart and seeing what I can do to it to turn it into a fun little gokart for zipping around town. As for track days, there are no tracks here in Iceland, but I'd imagine if you were going to track days in one, you'd want to find a track that had a CCS charger on site, because chucking these little things around is probably fairly addictive if you do it regularly :lol:

It sounds like you had a lot of fun, despite the car's shortcomings when it gets pushed a little - how did you find the running gear while you were throwing it around for a sustained amount of time? Where there any overheating issues or warnings? How was the battery usage when you were being a bit more aggressive with it?

I'm super curious to hear more! 8-)

thank you for your input! that makes me more confident in going down the wheel and tyre route first and then followed by springs, since i can convince myself tyres are part of ‘wear and tear’.

on the power and drive train side i am honestly pleasantly surprised with the consumption! one lap of the course is about 1 -1:30 minutes, and each course on average used 1% per lap. after 3 hours ( with breaks ) of driving i averaged 20kwh/ 100km, which is pretty impressive, im guessing thanks alot to the regen. no signs of overheating from battery or motor, brakes still bite extremely well. i left climate control off the whole time as i was worried of having enough charge to get home but no worries there. of course imagine if you need to drive further down to a local event or track you might have to plan for a ccs somewhere along the way. luckily mine was only ~ 30km away.

one point to add, after reviewing some footage mounted at the wheel arch, it seems like the crazy turn angle of the honda e might be a little too much. with the limited grip of the front tyre and how much the front turns, i notice the car just ploughed straight ahead as i approached full lock. ( definitely also the weight of the car) for next session i would try to not go for full turning angle straight away and be a bit more gradual for the front tyre to hook up first
karl1994
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:37 am

Post by karl1994 »

londiniumperson wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:42 pm Bjørn Nyland weighed his test Honda e and discovered:
Total: 1620kg
Front: 820kg
Rear: 800kg

Also I'd suggest turning off the Vehicle Stability Assist (VSA) System:
When the VSA system is off, the traction control function becomes less effective.
This allows for the wheels to spin more freely at low speed.
You should only attempt to free your vehicle with the VSA off if you are not able to free it when the VSA is on.
yes, agreed, i turned ‘off’ all electronic aids before each run( will reset everytime you restart) but like you said, TC only becomes less effective, and not totally off. i wonder if there is a chance to do it the old school way; pulling a fuse.

on rare occasions that the car starts to rotate, i can feel the power cut after 1-2 seconds.
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Verone
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Post by Verone »

londiniumperson wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:42 pm Bjørn Nyland weighed his test Honda e and discovered:
Total: 1620kg
Front: 820kg
Rear: 800kg
Super interesting, I'd have thought it was the other way around, perhaps the additional steering lock, and the slightly heavy front end is giving the affect of overloading the front tires during hard braking. Really interested to see how mine goes.
karl1994 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:09 am on the power and drive train side i am honestly pleasantly surprised with the consumption! one lap of the course is about 1 -1:30 minutes, and each course on average used 1% per lap. after 3 hours ( with breaks ) of driving i averaged 20kwh/ 100km, which is pretty impressive, im guessing thanks alot to the regen. no signs of overheating from battery or motor, brakes still bite extremely well. i left climate control off the whole time as i was worried of having enough charge to get home but no worries there. of course imagine if you need to drive further down to a local event or track you might have to plan for a ccs somewhere along the way. luckily mine was only ~ 30km away.

one point to add, after reviewing some footage mounted at the wheel arch, it seems like the crazy turn angle of the honda e might be a little too much. with the limited grip of the front tyre and how much the front turns, i notice the car just ploughed straight ahead as i approached full lock. ( definitely also the weight of the car) for next session i would try to not go for full turning angle straight away and be a bit more gradual for the front tyre to hook up first
On the drivetrain, that's really encouraging to hear - just remember that if you are driving it hard, you will need to keep an eye on the condition of the transmission fluid (yes, the Honda e has one, but I believe it's just a single speed reduction box - check page 596 of the user manual)

Your thoughts on the extra steering lock and understeer are super interesting, that might be part and parcel of the problem for sure. I'll be really interested to drive mine a lot when it arrives, and get used to it 8-)

Oh, and please be aware, if you're thinking of pulling fuses for the VSC, the car has an EDR and SDR - the SDR (service diagnosis recorder) will log if you've pulled fuses and disabled various systems on the car, and Honda might deny warranty claims based on this (it's covered on page 2 of the owner's manual). Just one to be aware of.
Icelandic Advance Limited Edition in Premium Crystal Red on 17" rims
Registered May 2023
Home Type 2 Charging & Free Work Type 2 Charging! Woo!
ODO - 8750km
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FDAD
Posts: 492
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:55 pm
Location: Porto, Portugal

Post by FDAD »

You'll have to modify a multisystem fuse from the bonnet fuse block.
Buy one new, customize the one you have and keep the new one as spare.
Honda E advance [Modern Steel Metallic] 8-) [DELIVERED JULY 2020] - 85 000Kms + ✌️🎂
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FDAD
Posts: 492
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Location: Porto, Portugal

Post by FDAD »

karl1994 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:09 am

thank you for your input! that makes me more confident in going down the wheel and tyre route first and then followed by springs, since i can convince myself tyres are part of ‘wear and tear’.

on the power and drive train side i am honestly pleasantly surprised with the consumption! one lap of the course is about 1 -1:30 minutes, and each course on average used 1% per lap. after 3 hours ( with breaks ) of driving i averaged 20kwh/ 100km, which is pretty impressive, im guessing thanks alot to the regen. no signs of overheating from battery or motor, brakes still bite extremely well. i left climate control off the whole time as i was worried of having enough charge to get home but no worries there. of course imagine if you need to drive further down to a local event or track you might have to plan for a ccs somewhere along the way. luckily mine was only ~ 30km away.

one point to add, after reviewing some footage mounted at the wheel arch, it seems like the crazy turn angle of the honda e might be a little too much. with the limited grip of the front tyre and how much the front turns, i notice the car just ploughed straight ahead as i approached full lock. ( definitely also the weight of the car) for next session i would try to not go for full turning angle straight away and be a bit more gradual for the front tyre to hook up first
Are you planning on making any footage public?
Honda E advance [Modern Steel Metallic] 8-) [DELIVERED JULY 2020] - 85 000Kms + ✌️🎂
karl1994
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:37 am

Post by karl1994 »

Verone wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:17 am
londiniumperson wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:42 pm Bjørn Nyland weighed his test Honda e and discovered:
Total: 1620kg
Front: 820kg
Rear: 800kg
Super interesting, I'd have thought it was the other way around, perhaps the additional steering lock, and the slightly heavy front end is giving the affect of overloading the front tires during hard braking. Really interested to see how mine goes.
karl1994 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:09 am on the power and drive train side i am honestly pleasantly surprised with the consumption! one lap of the course is about 1 -1:30 minutes, and each course on average used 1% per lap. after 3 hours ( with breaks ) of driving i averaged 20kwh/ 100km, which is pretty impressive, im guessing thanks alot to the regen. no signs of overheating from battery or motor, brakes still bite extremely well. i left climate control off the whole time as i was worried of having enough charge to get home but no worries there. of course imagine if you need to drive further down to a local event or track you might have to plan for a ccs somewhere along the way. luckily mine was only ~ 30km away.

one point to add, after reviewing some footage mounted at the wheel arch, it seems like the crazy turn angle of the honda e might be a little too much. with the limited grip of the front tyre and how much the front turns, i notice the car just ploughed straight ahead as i approached full lock. ( definitely also the weight of the car) for next session i would try to not go for full turning angle straight away and be a bit more gradual for the front tyre to hook up first
On the drivetrain, that's really encouraging to hear - just remember that if you are driving it hard, you will need to keep an eye on the condition of the transmission fluid (yes, the Honda e has one, but I believe it's just a single speed reduction box - check page 596 of the user manual)

Your thoughts on the extra steering lock and understeer are super interesting, that might be part and parcel of the problem for sure. I'll be really interested to drive mine a lot when it arrives, and get used to it 8-)

Oh, and please be aware, if you're thinking of pulling fuses for the VSC, the car has an EDR and SDR - the SDR (service diagnosis recorder) will log if you've pulled fuses and disabled various systems on the car, and Honda might deny warranty claims based on this (it's covered on page 2 of the owner's manual). Just one to be aware of.

Do let me know how much of the difference the changes to your car makes, especially with the lowering springs and better tyres, as you mentioned driving your friend's E being a big improvement. Thank for the reminder about the trans fluid, totally forgot about that.
Oh did not know about the SDR, definitely something to do only after the car warranty is up then for now.
karl1994
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:37 am

Post by karl1994 »

FDAD wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:13 pm You'll have to modify a multisystem fuse from the bonnet fuse block.
Buy one new, customize the one you have and keep the new one as spare.
Thats a good idea, however parts from i where live will take a long and difficult time to arrive in general. While im happy the E is such a unique and rare little car, the downside to all of these is the serious lack of after market support and even knowledge..

on the footage, let me compile some together and post it on private youtube channel. Will update with the link
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