Failed brake servo/pedal simulator - a how-to DIY fix

Faults and Technical chat for the Honda E
Dorothee
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2023 5:30 pm

Post by Dorothee »

You bought a used unit from a Jazz? Who’s to say it won’t fail in a couple of months either?

SF999999
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2024 2:17 pm

Post by SF999999 »

Thank you so much for putting in the time and effort to document this issue. I have the same problem with my 2020 Honda Jazz Crosstar and unfortunately zero mechanical ability. You stated that Honda Japan has issued a recall for this fault. I’ve search Google but found nothing. Do you know of evidence for this recall or how I could find it? That recall detail s probably the most solid evidence I (and others) could have for putting pressure on Honda and Honda dealers to pay for repairs and/ or issue an official recall in UK. If anyone else knows how to access the Honda Japan recall details please let me know. Thank you in advance.
MattHero
Posts: 303
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:17 pm

Post by MattHero »

SF999999 wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 7:55 pm Thank you so much for putting in the time and effort to document this issue. I have the same problem with my 2020 Honda Jazz Crosstar and unfortunately zero mechanical ability. You stated that Honda Japan has issued a recall for this fault. I’ve search Google but found nothing. Do you know of evidence for this recall or how I could find it? That recall detail s probably the most solid evidence I (and others) could have for putting pressure on Honda and Honda dealers to pay for repairs and/ or issue an official recall in UK. If anyone else knows how to access the Honda Japan recall details please let me know. Thank you in advance.
https://www.honda.co.jp/recall/auto/inf ... 8_683.html
2020 Advance Charge Yellow on 16s.
s2ke
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:00 am

Post by s2ke »

Great. I think our CRV is also on that list

It's a very similar system from brief glance. I got a bit of fluid and will bleed both when I get chance

Jeez
SF999999
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2024 2:17 pm

Post by SF999999 »

I found this article from December 2022 - ‘ Honda To Recall Chinese Hybrids for Faulty Brake Pedal Sensor’
https://thebrakereport.com/honda-to-rec ... al-sensor/

SHANGHAI – Honda will recall some 200,000 hybrid vehicles produced in China due to a potential issue with the brake pedal sensor, according to multiple media reports based on a statement by China’s State Administration for Market Regulation.

Further according to the statement, the issue involves the introduction of lubricating oil into brake pedal sensors during the manufacturing process which can cause sensor issues over time and impact braking.

The recall population covers 105,608 hybrid vehicles produced between Oct. 8, 2018, and Sept. 7, 2020, by Honda’s joint venture with Dongfeng Motor Group Co. and another 95,081 units from the Japanese car maker’s manufacturing partnership with Guangzhou Automobile Group Co. produced between August 27, 2018, and August 6, 2020.

The recall begins March 31,2023.
MattHero
Posts: 303
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:17 pm

Post by MattHero »

SF999999 wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 9:40 pm The recall begins March 31,2023.
A date when every e supplied would have still been in the original manufacturers warranty.
2020 Advance Charge Yellow on 16s.
SF999999
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2024 2:17 pm

Post by SF999999 »

I was advised by Which? Legal to claim for repair or replacement of my car from the Honda dealer where I purchased my Jazz


“…..Section 9, 10‭ and 11 of the ‬Consumer Rights Act 2015‭ require you to supply goods of ‬satisfactory quality, that are fit for purpose and which are as described. The problem described above shows there was an inherent defect in the electric servo brake control unit‭ ‬at the time of purchase. You are therefore in breach of contract.

In these circumstances I am entitled to a repair or replacement.
Please note that liability for substandard goods cannot be restricted or otherwise excluded,
pursuant to ‭ ‬s.31 of ‭ ‬the Act, ‭ ‬despite any ‭ ‬terms and ‭ ‬conditions to ‭ ‬the contrary. ‭ ‬To be ‭ ‬clear,
these rights act independently of any guarantee that may or may not have been provided in
respect of the works.
Under the‭ Consumer Rights Act 2015‭ remedies for breach of contract must be performed ‬‬
within a reasonable amount of time, without significant inconvenience to me, with you
bearing all necessary costs.”…..

The dealership’s response is…

“In receipt of your letter , We apologise  for any inconvenience caused but given the Length of time that you have purchased the vehicle the Consumer Rights you have quoted do not apply
 
* You have the Right to reject your item and get a refund within 30 days of possessing the goods.
* You could also ask the retailer to repair or replace your item within six months of purchase.
* Your rights against the retailer can last up to six years , but after the first six months the onus is on you to prove a fault was present at the time you took ownership of the goods.
* You can also use your guarantee or warranty if applicable,  if your product develops a fault……”

The Chinese recall reveal that the fault that caused the sensor to fail (poor quality brake fluid) was present when the vehicle was purchased from the dealers.
User avatar
londiniumperson
Posts: 1823
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:37 pm

Post by londiniumperson »

SF999999 wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:03 am I was advised by Which? Legal to claim for repair or replacement of my car from the Honda dealer where I purchased my Jazz


“…..Section 9, 10‭ and 11 of the ‬Consumer Rights Act 2015‭ require you to supply goods of ‬satisfactory quality, that are fit for purpose and which are as described. The problem described above shows there was an inherent defect in the electric servo brake control unit‭ ‬at the time of purchase. You are therefore in breach of contract.

In these circumstances I am entitled to a repair or replacement.
Please note that liability for substandard goods cannot be restricted or otherwise excluded,
pursuant to ‭ ‬s.31 of ‭ ‬the Act, ‭ ‬despite any ‭ ‬terms and ‭ ‬conditions to ‭ ‬the contrary. ‭ ‬To be ‭ ‬clear,
these rights act independently of any guarantee that may or may not have been provided in
respect of the works.
Under the‭ Consumer Rights Act 2015‭ remedies for breach of contract must be performed ‬‬
within a reasonable amount of time, without significant inconvenience to me, with you
bearing all necessary costs.”…..

The dealership’s response is…

“In receipt of your letter , We apologise  for any inconvenience caused but given the Length of time that you have purchased the vehicle the Consumer Rights you have quoted do not apply
 
* You have the Right to reject your item and get a refund within 30 days of possessing the goods.
* You could also ask the retailer to repair or replace your item within six months of purchase.
* Your rights against the retailer can last up to six years , but after the first six months the onus is on you to prove a fault was present at the time you took ownership of the goods.
* You can also use your guarantee or warranty if applicable,  if your product develops a fault……”

The Chinese recall reveal that the fault that caused the sensor to fail (poor quality brake fluid) was present when the vehicle was purchased from the dealers.
Thank you for the update, this is exactly the response that we ALL expected from Honda.
It's very disappointing that Honda take no responsibility and treat all of their customers with contempt.

Please keep us informed of the next course of action that the Which? Legal team advise next and the outcome if possible.
2020 Advance in Crystal Black Pearl on 17's - 08/2020-Current
2015 VW Tiguan (Pure White) - 04/2018-Current
1991 Honda Beat PP1 (Festival Red) - 11/2022-Current
Drlinkin
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:34 am

Post by Drlinkin »

MrM83 wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2024 1:03 pm Top work that, hats off.

Regarding fluid changes, do you think there is any demand that could be placed on the servicing dealer at the time which would help evidence / ensure the brake fluid change has been done satisfactorily?
I would expect that most dealers follow a standard process for bleeding the brake fluid, it may even be a technical document from Honda themselves on how to do it. It would be interesting to know whether it’s supposed to include the tandem pump circuit (and they just didn’t do it twice for me) or if that fluid reservoir and system never gets touched for the lifetime of the car.

For the forthcoming service due this summer I’m going to grit my teeth and pay the dealer once again (to keep the book looking right - which is a massive part of resale value should I choose to sell up) and I may even do a little test and ask them to flush the brake fluid again, then complete my moisture content tests afterwards.

I suspect if you asked the service person to do a ‘full bleed’ it would likely cost you at a greater rate, despite not actually being hard to do at all.
Drlinkin
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:34 am

Post by Drlinkin »

Banana Jack wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2024 9:39 am Fantastic investigations Dan and work and thank you so much for sharing.

I wonder whether a good long-term solution would be to use silicone brake fluid to prevent moisture absorption and component corrosion? I use Automec in my classic Minis for example and it basically doesn't ever need changing. Just an idea.

https://www.automec.co.uk/products/sili ... luid-dot-5

Thanks again for the write-up and photos.

Glenn
DOT 5 fluid is actually silicone based (not DOT 5.1, mind) so would actually be a commercially viable solution as you say. My concern would be both the risk of cross contamination (they’re not compatible as I’m sure you know) and what would happen if/when you took the car to be serviced (they’d likely just flush it with their machine, which would have synthetic non-silicone based fluid in it.

Assuming you’re ever going to pay a garage for that sort of work of course. Once older and out of warranty etc, you may not wish to.
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